working on Melbourne, Australia ; YMML

[ronb62]

Not announced a project for a while. Done quite a few though. I have spent an inordinate amount of time on this so far but still some ways to go so thought I'd better. 

For such a large airport it has VERY little (useful) information by way of pictures and video of airside. Even the AIP info doesn't convey half of what I need. The sat imagery is out of date. There are several upgrade projects on the go there. Taxiway (project) V appears 70-80% complete in pictures I have found from March (so I finished it for them) My logic being by the time this scenery gets to the next release of airports it will match reality. Project (another new taxiway) Z has been started, I haven't done much more than I could see in a video dated 3 months ago just basic ground works ( I put a gravel pol where it is going in). There is also talk of 2 new runways parallel to each of the existing although the 2nd W-E may not happen (yet - if ever) Not done much re new runways except extend the airport boundary where the next runway requires it- That should help at next base scenery re-cut. 

I don't have info re the actual re-arranged stands, markings F24+ and G54+ so I'm hoping for a new sat image before I upload. The lates AIP Apron chart (FEB) from Airservices Austarlia gives the numbers but no layout. 

Anyway so far:-

[gsheath]

As a local, I can confirm a third runway at YMML will not be E-W.  I don't even know why they even considered that in the first place as most of the traffic uses the 16/34 runway, supported by 27.  9 is very rarely used . . . I can count on one hand how often we have an Easterly wind here (well, maybe 2 hands).  Studies and models are occurring based on a new N-S runway, and as you may have seen on the Melbourne Airport website . . "If the runway is approved construction could start as early as 2022".  Note the "If the runway is approved". They have real L O N G way to go yet - I doubt works will start as early as 2022 despite their wishful thinking!  

Anyway, good onya for working on this - if I can be of any help, let me know.

[mjrhealth]

Have you searched for the YMML FAC PDF, has more info.

Herehttps://www.crc.id.au/xplane/charts/ERSA-2020-MAY-21/Melbourne (YMML) FAC.pdf

Needed an update, thanks for picking it up.

Also good to spend time watching videos on you tube, can often find that little detail you are missing, just time consuming. Look for Melbourne airport take off or landing. Cockpit videos are best but usually you get passenger window ones

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by mjrhealth

[ronb62]

15 hours ago, gsheath said:

As a local, I can confirm a third runway at YMML will not be E-W.  I don't even know why they even considered that in the first place as most of the traffic uses the 16/34 runway, supported by 27.  9 is very rarely used . . . I can count on one hand how often we have an Easterly wind here (well, maybe 2 hands).  Studies and models are occurring based on a new N-S runway, and as you may have seen on the Melbourne Airport website . . "If the runway is approved construction could start as early as 2022".  Note the "If the runway is approved". They have real L O N G way to go yet - I doubt works will start as early as 2022 despite their wishful thinking!  

Anyway, good onya for working on this - if I can be of any help, let me know.

Hi,

Thanks for that. As I read the W-E runway was the fourth runway, and likely not to happen with the N_S likely happening in the next few years as you confirm. Taxiway V almost done and Taxiway Z started groundworks from a video I found. For such a large international airport it has extremely little prescence by way of pictures and video airside! The lastest (very blurred) sat image shows the new tarmac/concrete as of Feb and I finished the N section of V off, it may well be actually finished? It looks like it is also going to be extended S of twy J as well with preparations in place but no evidence of it started. Is it do you know? Unfortunately the latest sat images I can find are so poor I can barely make out taxilines let alone what they are or stand numbers.

[ronb62]

14 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

Have you searched for the YMML FAC PDF, has more info.

Herehttps://www.crc.id.au/xplane/charts/ERSA-2020-MAY-21/Melbourne (YMML) FAC.pdf

Needed an update, thanks for picking it up.

Also good to spend time watching videos on you tube, can often find that little detail you are missing, just time consuming. Look for Melbourne airport take off or landing. Cockpit videos are best but usually you get passenger window ones

 

 

Hi Dave

Yes done that! got them, also re the videos- It's a good tip and one I always use. They also help with picking up some uniqueness that can be included. However none have helped me with the stand number actual layouts (F24+ & J54+ being the ones I really need to know along with associated taxi lines and all other markings in those areas)  The latest sat images are so poor to be much help here at all except show the new concrete areas around the stands listed above. I've  already watched what little cockpit video there is of landings and airside pictures to get help with the terminal structure and taxilines etc. I was very surprised by how little there is of an airport of this size/importance. It's a full rework from scratch as so much has changed and much needed changing so that it included the new terminal facades and Jetways etc. I have thought of emailing the airport, but having tried this approach in the past with others airports and never having a response....

Thanks for the response, always welcome

Ron

[mjrhealth]

Ye im trying to do YBBN new runway but sat pics havnt caught up.

[ronb62]

Just an update -a couple of newer pics. Still quite some work to do. 

To get around the location of some of the G numbered stands problem- I put the stand co-ordinates from AIP into a conversion to all decimal in Excel and then used them in a sign , like Jan told us to when locating the ILS to modify tha data (when we could!) using a cone. The sign is better I think in this use because its icon grows as you zoom out, and conversely. This gave me precise location but no direction, hence some of the G stands are perfect, some I had to leave out because the taximarkings are profuse, blurred and totally unclear. Best that can be done at the moment I think. 

[Janov]

It looks absolutely gorgeous, Ron!

I am happy to see that I am not the only one chipping away at a big airport...they are truly the "Iron Man" of airport scenery building!

When you are doing dozens and dozens of parking ramp spots you really have to make yourself think: "Every stand is important! I need to make every stand nice and unique...". Not that easy to stay focused.

When faced with blurry satellite images I often check google maps (and switch to sat image) these days - for some odd reasons I often tend to get a sharper image than in google earth!?

Great job, keep plugging.

Cheers, jan

 

[ronb62]

3 hours ago, Janov said:

It looks absolutely gorgeous, Ron!

I am happy to see that I am not the only one chipping away at a big airport...they are truly the "Iron Man" of airport scenery building!

When you are doing dozens and dozens of parking ramp spots you really have to make yourself think: "Every stand is important! I need to make every stand nice and unique...". Not that easy to stay focused.

When faced with blurry satellite images I often check google maps (and switch to sat image) these days - for some odd reasons I often tend to get a sharper image than in google earth!?

Great job, keep plugging.

Cheers, jan

 

Hi Jan

Google Earth (pro) doesn't always give you the latest imagery!!!  If you just click on the Clock icon (7th icon in from left for me) it often then gives you later imagery than what is first offered. This shows that it has changed in sevral places, especially around the mid section of the airport (high G &F stand numbers) but it is this latest that is so blury and unreadable. Also, one tip I found for countries that make Google blur the imagery over airports and other installations (e.g. Greece etc) is if you go back using the time slider the imagery unpixalates!

Just tried your method vs mine thinking it might be 2 routes to the same imagery- (it isn't, at least in this case- mine is giving a later image set!

Best wishes

Ron

 

[ronb62]

a few more pics. It is getting difficult to show something different even though a lot goes in between updates. I keep zipping about> operationally it's done, it just needs some "dressing"

[gsheath]

G'day @ronb62 ,

The asset you're using for the apron flood lights is wrong - you should use a shorter version without the red and white stripes. Also, the fire training area near the control tower shouldn't have a real aircraft there - it should just be a fire training hulk (can't remember if there is one in the assets though, and not currently near my PC).

 

[Janov]

Yeah, those two problems are faced regularly when designing "big" airports.

There really is no substitution for the "Apron Flood light" - it is the only one in the library with a decent size and good lighting capability. The ramp flood lights are pretty meek and only emit yellowish lights - one CAN work with them by bundling two or three together for stronger light cast, but it is still yellow.

The "streetlights" are white, but especially the large and mast variant - which cast a good light cone - unfortunately have a very bright "halo" effect assigned by Laminar, effectively blinding pilots approaching the aerodrome and looking very unreal.

So I have resigned to using the Apron Flood light as well - accepting its out of place "red and white" mast and hoping for a better lighting option in the future, so we can swap those out.

The fire fighting hulk is also not available in the standard LR library, so it is pretty much either a "real" aircraft or nothing at all. I usually opt for a real aircraft, just so people can "guess" what that area is.

Cheers, Jan

 

[gsheath]

2 hours ago, Janov said:

So I have resigned to using the Apron Flood light as well - accepting its out of place "red and white" mast and hoping for a better lighting option in the future, so we can swap those out.

Mmmmm. My preference would still be not to use the Apron Lights, and go for a daylight looking reality rather than a night time looking reality.  

[Janov]

46 minutes ago, gsheath said:

My preference would still be not to use the Apron Lights, and go for a daylight looking reality rather than a night time looking reality. 

And thats the beauty of our airport work - artistic liberty 😉

My preference is functionality - in this case everyone flying to this airport at night would think "hmm, something is wrong" if tuning it for daytime looks, but only people that actually know Melbourne would spot something wrong when flying to it in the daytime.

Most users are not familiar with the airports we are making, even though I agree that the red/white lights look jarringly out of place at most airports (except some former eastern block ones, they love to paint stuff red/white on their airports for visibility reasons...not that far fetched).

Cheers, Jan

 

[ronb62]

14 hours ago, gsheath said:

G'day @ronb62 ,

The asset you're using for the apron flood lights is wrong - you should use a shorter version without the red and white stripes. Also, the fire training area near the control tower shouldn't have a real aircraft there - it should just be a fire training hulk (can't remember if there is one in the assets though, and not currently near my PC).

 

Great, thanks for the pic. There is no fire practice hulk asset. I have already suggested one be included several times. The (useful) assets decrease! 30 types each of dumpster, sailboats, sailplane trailers or caravans etc. should not be the prioroty over much higher priority items. LR take note!! (please) Re the apron lights- Jan penned my exact reasoning process choice. I had spotted the correct type but yet another asset deficiency!!

Edited October 11, 2020 by ronb62
spotted Jan's comment

[ronb62]

Getting to the point where any more is perhaps too much. A lot of checking then final corrections and upload soon

[gsheath]

Looks good [apart from the lights 😖 ]

(I was hoping to be able to get to the airport and get some close up pics for you as a better reference, but with our current travel restrictions, I'm not allowed to - never mind the thought was there eh?!)

[Janov]

Excellent job, Ron!

You could try to batch-exchange the lights with the tall apron flood lights, then batch align them to 360 degrees. Now duplicate all of them, batch align all duplicates to 090 degrees. Now duplicate those again, batch align to 180 degrees...and one last time for 270 degrees.

That way you will replace each Apron Flood light with 4 Tall apron flood lights - just to see how it looks? I will try the same thing on my LFPG scenery...it was just a thought I recently had.

Cheers, Jan

[gsheath]

13 hours ago, Janov said:

You could try to batch-exchange the lights with the tall apron flood lights, then batch align them to 360 degrees. Now duplicate all of them, batch align all duplicates to 090 degrees. Now duplicate those again, batch align to 180 degrees...and one last time for 270 degrees.

Jan, when is the next set of tutorials coming? 🤓

[ronb62]

15 hours ago, Janov said:

Excellent job, Ron!

You could try to batch-exchange the lights with the tall apron flood lights, then batch align them to 360 degrees. Now duplicate all of them, batch align all duplicates to 090 degrees. Now duplicate those again, batch align to 180 degrees...and one last time for 270 degrees.

That way you will replace each Apron Flood light with 4 Tall apron flood lights - just to see how it looks? I will try the same thing on my LFPG scenery...it was just a thought I recently had.

Cheers, Jan

Had the exact same idea. I agree with @gsheath the apron flood actually looks better but then is useless as night lighting for anyone. I had gone through the same logic process as you on previous airports> will give it a go see how it looks, maybe put pics here for comparison and comment! I have used double/treble items before, lights and columns (columns at different heights using msl - now frowned upon) .

[ronb62]

1 hour ago, ronb62 said:

Had the exact same idea. I agree with @gsheath the apron flood actually looks a better match, at first glance, but then is useless as night lighting for anyone. I had gone through the same logic process as Jan on previous airports> will give it a go see how it looks, maybe put pics here for comparison and comment! I have used double/treble items before, lights and columns (columns at different heights using msl - now frowned upon) .

OKay!  you asked --opinions please. Also if @Julian (Laminar Research)is available to look and comment. The light cluster at the top didn't quite work out how I (and maybe @Janov too) thought it would, The red white apron light is 35.9m tall and the tall apron is 22.8m, so the grey would be in the pilots eyes and looks a mess (to me) at the top.  Anyway, comments please

[Janov]

I did a similiar experiment today, including also the medium ramp lights and medium street lights - in a "3 lights together" and a "6 lights together" variant.

I must say that during daylight I like the medium ramp lights combo the best - yes, the top gets a bit garbled, but its really not so obvious.

However - during the night for me there is simply NO replacing the colour and coverage of the Apron Flood lights. The orange glow may look ok for U.S. airports, but here in Europe and pretty much all over the world they have whitish lights. Plus the area lit by the other lights is also quite a bit smaller, I think.

Just my opinion and I am sure Julian wouldn´t reject a scenery done any way. We will continue lobbying for more light variants at LR...

Cheers, Jan

 

[gsheath]

@Janov and @ronb62 thankyou for doing the experiment.  I still think the Tall Apron lights look better in day and night, and they do suit YMML.  However, I'll bow to the real world pilot knowledge regarding the reality at night of the other ones.  I so wish I could get into YMML soon to get some pics. I must say, the orange glow of the Tall Apron lights do look like what I recall on a misty morning,  or when we have bushfires!  I'll go back on my pics over the years and see what I can find.  Thanks once again, guys.

[gsheath]

Here you are . . . . the image I had in mind with the yellow glow, and the image during bushfires!  Also for interest, bushfires with pyro-cumulus clouds!

[Janov]

57 minutes ago, gsheath said:

the orange glow of the Tall Apron lights do look like what I recall on a misty morning

Sadly I have never been to Australia, and it is entirely possible that the lights there are of the orange tinted type - which would make the tall ramp lit variant a very likely candidate, indeed!

Cheers, Jan